Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Today, we're diving into a side of family building that doesn't always get the spotlight. The emotional journey. Building a family, whether through traditional methods, assisted reproduction, or third party options like surrogacy or egg donation, is about so much more than just biology. It's a deeply personal process that can bring excitement and hope, but also moments of stress, uncertainty, and even some soul searching.
Everyone involved, intended parents, surrogates, egg donors, or even those providing support experience a mix of emotions, and that's completely normal.
Family building can bring up big questions about identity, connection, and what the future might hold, even for those who haven't faced infertility or loss.
Welcome to the Fertility Cafe where we explore the beautiful complexity of modern family building.
I'm your host, Elo Drain. And this is a space for honest conversations about surrogacy, egg donation and the journey to parenthood. With expert insights and real stories, we're here to guide you through the medical, legal and emotional aspects of third party family building.
We believe that love has no limits and neither should parenthood.
Welcome to today's episode. More than the emotional and psychological aspects of family building. I'm your host, Eloise Drain. With so many highs and lows along the way, having the right support and understanding is key.
And that's why I'm so GLAD to have Dr. Linda Kondylis joining us today.
Dr. Kondillis is a reproductive health psychologist and and the founder of Orama Wellness. She's dedicated her career to helping people navigate the emotional side of family building.
Known for her compassionate down to earth approach, she has years of experience helping others work through the feelings and the decisions that arise when creating a family.
Today she'll share her insights into how support, self care and open communication can make this journey not just manageable but but also meaningful.
Let's dive in and explore what it really means to build a family in today's world with all the hopes, questions and emotions that come with it.
Hi Linda. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Hi Eloise. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: Well, it's a pleasure. So I'm going to just literally dive right in and first ask you if you could share what drew you to reproductive health psychology.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Oh, great question. Well, as you know, an undergrad, I was drawn to psychology and actually combined majors with sociology. Took my first women's studies course and ended up minoring it in that as well now called gender studies. And when I really realized that sociology wasn't my path, psychology was. I was going to do one on one work in the future and Apply for grad school. I wanted to combine everything and so women's health was something I want to prioritize. Before grad school, I did some research at UCSF as well as Cornell, just working in a lot of reproductive health spaces and research as an assistant. And yeah, it solidified it for me.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: So how does your background in women's studies inform your approach to fertility counseling?
[00:03:37] Speaker B: I think that both sociology and women's studies has. Because although I work predominantly one on one, of course, sometimes with couples, often with couples, I think looking at our culture and society has been so beneficial and both our culture, society and women's reproductive health has made so much momentum and has transitioned. But what has that meant for family building and how that has impacted people on an individual basis? So has been very helpful to integrate into therapy.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Sure, yes. I mean, and if you think about it too, I mean, family building is one of the most emotional roller coasters.
All the emotions that you can have sometimes all in the same day. Yes, it definitely is, I guess, a huge piece of the pie that I don't think that people think about when they're talking through the, like, I'm getting ready to go do surrogacy or I'm getting ready to do whatever. And they don't really think about the emotional side of it when it's one of the major components.
What is some of the most common emotional challenges you see with people when they're facing, you know, whether it's IVF or surrogacy or donation or.
And for those who feel overwhelmed with emotions, you know, what are some of the steps that they can take for processing their feelings? I know that was a two part question, but.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Yeah, but it's such an important one.
The emotions are so overwhelming. You named it so well. And they are so unexpected. And I think first they're unexpected because people are just thinking, well, how do I take the next steps forward?
There's a lot of decision making. Right. There's a lot of thinking and doing that's actually part of this process. So emotions get pushed on the. Pushed to the side just because you're trying to move forward.
Then the emotions also flood because there are such a big variety. So I would say the variety includes symptoms of anxiety, symptoms of depression, trauma symptoms, which I think people who have not been through this experience would be surprised to hear. But people who've been through this experience really feel seen in that.
I think there's lots of experiences of anger, guilt, shame, and there is just so many emotional ups and downs because needs and wants change. And that really can have a big impact on relationships as well.
Now, how I suggest people cope with all of that is, you know, pretty probably 10 shows our podcast. But to start, I think for most people, I'm working on seeing how attuned people are to their emotional experiences. How well are they at just naming what they are and identifying what they are, because oftentimes when we're emotionally overwhelmed, we want to self protect, we want to suppress, we want to push those emotions aside. We might even want to blame others, you know, because we don't want to experience that pain. So my first step in working with people is figuring out what emotions are coming up. Let's name those and let's really work on allowing yourself to experience them as well. Which I know might sound a little funny, you know, hearing a therapist say, let's feel our feels. But that is actually a huge part of it because so many people are so overwhelmed and they're really fearful that, you know, these emotions are going to take me over and I'm not going to make it.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: Well, and I think that is something to be said too because I think society teaches us do everything but feel.
[00:07:37] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: You know, take medication so you don't feel.
Do this so you don't feel.
Whatever, so you don't feel. And the whole thing is in order to go through whatever you are feeling, to know that you can get on the other side is to feel. That's the best way to cope through it. That is the best way to deal with it, whether it's the shame or the fear or the anxiety or whatever. Because once you get to the other side, you realize like, oh, I made it, I got to the other side. And yes, we do curse on this episode. So I just FYI, so it's like, oh my goodness, I made it. And that really, you know, I read one time of how you have to feel through things to make sure that you to know that you're going to survive and that the next time this emotion comes up, even though it's something you don't like to feel, it's uncomfortable, but knowing that you felt it and you went through it, that it's not going to break you and you can continue going on.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: Yes. And I think you're highlighting the profound impact that we know resilience and confidence in yourself and trust in yourself can build and keep you through the momentum of family building, but also beyond, because life is going to constantly throw new things at you and to circle back. Oh, go ahead.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: Yeah, go Ahead. No, go ahead.
[00:09:10] Speaker B: Oh, to circle back to another thing that I see a lot that you were mentioning is I love how you said, yeah, we're taught not to feel. And I couldn't agree with you more. We live in a culture that's like, push, push, push through. Because also we need you to, we do need you to not feel, but we need you to be really high functioning and get your work done. And the two don't go hand in hand. It's going to catch up.
So, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: And especially when it comes to family building, I think again, people put them in segments. You know, I'm going through this. This is the process, this is the stuff. This is what I need to do. I'm taking medications, I'm doing my ivf. I have to find a surrogate, I have to find a donor. I have to go through this process. I have to do this without really stopping to understand the emotional impact that it's going to have.
Because when you are going through surrogacy and you're an intended mother or you're needing to work with an egg donor and you're an intended mother, you actually have to mourn that loss. The loss of carrying a pregnancy, the loss of carrying a genetic child to you. And you have to always kind of remind yourself and come back to that, do I want to be a mom or do I want to have genetics?
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Yes, you. When you move forward in third party, like you're mentioning surrogacy, egg donation, you know, embryo donation, sperm donation, you need to slow down. I always say to people, emotionally, I want you to, I want you to capture this moment of family building like another job. And if you had another job, you'd put some of your other stuff to the back burner. That's what we need to do here. Because you do need to slow down. Because sometimes you need to grieve.
Sometimes you need to decision make surrogacy. Sometimes you need to establish a new relationship.
Right? You need to slow down in some areas of your life to make room for this emotionally.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Oh, for sure, 100%. I mean, that is without a shadow of a doubt. One other point I wanted to make. I know we talk about intended mothers a lot. I like to, I want to bring in the intended fathers too, because I think we talk about the intended mothers and we always, and especially as a woman, you know, I'm always about women's health and all of this stuff. But the fathers, whether they're straight and they're with their Wives, or they're part of lgbt, or they're even single.
And having to go through this can also be an emotional piece, even though you know that you were never going to be able to carry a child or, you know, you don't have eggs to potentially create the other side of what's needed. But it's still an emotional piece that you also have to consider with the ups and downs of what fertility and the process of going through fertility care can bring.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, the unpredictable nature of it. Right. We. We hope that people's paths moving forward will go well, but that's not always a guarantee. There's often starts and stops.
Oh, wow. We thought that was an option. Now we have to pivot. And that's a lot on everyone, no matter who is building a family, no matter, you know what, how you identify that is tough on everyone.
And it's particularly tough, I think, for couples because it's just so rare that we have two people who are managing emotions in the same way. I mean, that's kind of the beauty of relationships, right? If you're partnered that you look to them and say, say, oh, wow, they have this great skill set I don't have. We're such a great team. Right. But that also will then show up in different spaces where it's like, oh, but we grieve differently. Oh, but we manage the unknowns differently. And then how do we relate to one another when we are managing things differently?
[00:13:15] Speaker A: We were.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: We were joined so closely to this to start on this path forward, and now we're feeling a little more disconnected because we're just. We have different styles of coping. It's very challenging.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: It definitely is. And I'm glad you even brought that up, because I'm curious as to. What advice do you have for partners who aren't on the same page about the path they want to take, you know, to move forward with, whether it's surrogacy or donor gametes or the treatment or whatever the case might be. I mean, what would you recommend?
[00:13:51] Speaker B: I mean, what I see in the work that I do when this comes up is I would really encourage, especially if there's some listeners who really identify with this question, I would really encourage each person in the relationship to really dig into the fear, because that's usually nine times out of ten. I'm not saying that there aren't other factors. Right. Like financial factors. Right. There's a lot going on here. But on an emotional level, when I feel that resistance or hesitation to move forward, I tend to identify fear in someone and that is a great thing to dig into rather than the other person in the couple saying, taking it personally, like you're not supporting me in moving forward. No, let's slow down and let's get into where's the fear about what would it mean moving forward? Because I'll tell you honestly, sometimes what comes up in a lot of couples is there's a partner that's like, I don't know if we should keep doing this because are we going to make it? Are you going to be okay? They're worried about their partner falling apart emotionally. So there's just a lot of fear and even fear for the well being of their family unit of two.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: And sometimes it's not even just a family unit of two. You may have secondary infertility or, you know, whatever, you already have a child and you know, you're now questioning the impact of how all of it is going to affect you and, and your child. And of course, you know, I mean, gosh, the financial piece of all of it is an emotional bearing in itself.
Just fear of the finances is huge.
[00:15:29] Speaker B: Fear finances is hugely understandable. Yes. Because there's no guarantee, you know, it's not like, you know, most of our investing. We know what we're investing in and we know what we're going to get back. And fertility treatment, family building is not the same. So it's a huge investment for what is a good chance, but not 100%. And that's scary. And I am glad you married, mentioned secondary infertility because again, partners wonder, well, what is going to happen?
How, how is this going to be for our child that's already in our family while we're trying to family build for another child. Absolutely.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: I'm curious what your thoughts are and what to share with the family that's kind of been in that waiting period. Right. So you're, you've gone through, you started the process, you've got on the same page, you finally have agreed, you've gone through all of that and now you're waiting, you're waiting for another round of IVF to work, you're waiting to find a surrogate, you're, you're waiting to select that donor, you're waiting for the surrogate to go through screening, you're waiting for whatever that waiting part of this whole process and really the waiting part on everybody's process because even the donors and the surrogates and their experiences and waiting to, it's hard.
[00:17:02] Speaker B: So.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: And now with a couple, you're also in that waiting period. And now you're doing it together. And sometimes there's a lot of tension.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: Yes. I think the waiting can be so frustrating on all parties. All parties. And it is such a. Timelines matter in family building. I'm not saying timelines don't matter everywhere else, but timelines really matter for emotional stability.
So when I'm working one on one with someone or in a couple, or even if I'm screening a surrogate and I'm talking to them about, oh, wow, I imagine you're let down because that timeline got extended longer than you had hoped. I'm always encouraging people to take that time to reinvest in themselves because I don't know one person on this earth who doesn't need a little extra time to do that. And so the beauty of doing such intimate work, like individual or couples therapy, is I also get to dig in to figure out and help someone find what would that actually look like? And actually get them started on the process on how we can invest back into self, how we could potentially focus on healing some of the aspects of what they've already been through in preparation for what's next, whether it's fertility treatment, whether it's surrogacy, you know, donor conception, but just to reinvest in self. Because some of this moves really quickly. But then, like you said, there's always that waiting period. And if you're just staring at the calendar, you're going to get extra frustrated. And I'd rather people be using that time for themselves.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: I think that is probably one of the hardest pieces in this entire process, is that waiting process and being able to figure out before you even start the process what your game plan is for waiting.
Not just not waiting to wait.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: While before I even get there, what should my game plan be?
[00:19:07] Speaker B: Yes. I think the. The emotional exhaustion some people have around planning, too, can be very difficult. I want to mention something else about timelines too, is that I think we, you know, if we kind of zoom back out and look in the big picture, when we're born and raised, we typically did things along our peers right at the same timeline. And I think one of the challenging things about family building is, you know, we did grade school altogether, we might have attended a prom altogether. Right. Like, I'm just bringing us back to childhood. And then all of a sudden I'm in my adult life, I want something to happen. I'm looking all around me and it seems like it's happening for everybody else except me on my Timeline and what a loss and deep grief and pain in that as well is that it's not just I'm, I want what I want now. It's just I also have to then be exposed to all these other people who are living in the space I want to be in that I'm waiting for.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: And I don't just think that is just the loss.
I think that it's also the shame, the sight self doubt that affect people, you know, going through this journey, the fact that they have to go through IVF or they have to go through third party to be able to complete their family. When, you know, when you're a child and you're thinking of your life or whatever, none of this ever crosses your paths whatsoever. About that's, this is how I'm going to end up having my life to be. So, you know, so I think shame is a big, huge part of it. As a matter of fact, I was speaking to someone and you know, we just happened to have, start having a conversation of what I do for a living. And she was like, oh, that's so interesting. A friend of mine, you know, they're going through surrogacy and I've known this person, person for over 30 years and it was such a difficult thing for them to share with me that they were going through surrogacy. And I could literally see the shame on their faces and I was just like, well, why, why is there, that, you know, there shouldn't be any shame but on their faces? It was just like, yeah, we're, you know, we're going through surrogacy. And I know some people's reactions, it's, it's, it's exciting and they have no qualms about it whatsoever. And then others, it's just like, well, unfortunately, this is the path that we have to go down. I'm curious what is a good first step in addressing those emotions and you know, and what advice would you give to someone?
[00:21:53] Speaker B: Shame is huge, huge emotion that comes up here and I think first identifying, well, what is shame? Right? What is it? Shame is when we feel like something's inherently wrong with us. And I think for someone who is always planning on family building and family building with their own gametes, their own uterus, their own bodies, it's really hard to think that if they can't utilize those options that something's wrong, inherently wrong with them.
So again, what my advice to your listeners who might identify with this is, and some of the work that I do individually is really questioning when did you first connect this idea that your worth and your.
And your worthiness and who you are on this planet has anything to do with your reproductive abilities?
And that usually has a long story attached to it.
Well, now that I think about it, when I was younger, this is what was told to me and what I remember from TV and movies and the conversations that are still happening today in front of me. And so much of the individual work I do and so much work your listeners can do is really try to tease that apart.
You are worthy. You are worth everything. You are amazing. It doesn't matter what your reproductive abilities and options are. That's just a truth in itself.
But, you know, many people were taught that that is part of what creates their worth.
And that's probably where the shame comes up.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: That. And I think there's something to be said of that. We're lucky that we live in such a time as this in that we have the opportunities to be able to have children in different op, in different ways, whether it's surrogacy or through IVF or through, you know, how many people back in, back in, whenever, that this was never even a possibility. And we now have these opportunities to be able to have children and make the decisions to be able to have the children we want to be able to have the way we want to have them. I think it's a big.
A big piece that we don't necessarily always stop to think about in. Wow. I actually am lucky that I'm in this time of life that I can choose to have a child this way.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Yes. And I think that's a great thing to hold on to and utilize as a coping strategy is okay in all this challenge, how can I also find some space for gratitude for the options I do have, even if they weren't my first choice, but at least they're a choice. Because so much of my work individually with helping people with decision making is reminding them for emotional ease.
The more options you can potentially have, the better.
When you run out of options, that's when it gets harder and harder.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: Yes, 100%. So. And I'm going to kind of switch gears here, kind of in the same vein, though, and talk about individuals learning to advocate for themselves with their healthcare providers, with, I mean, whomever they're working with, and being able to speak up for themselves. And again, realizing, like, I'm lucky I get to make these decisions now, but I also need to use my own voice to get what I need, to require what it is that I need and request the things that I actually need and not just be dependent on something, someone or someone else to make these decisions for me. So for people who are going through this process and learning that they need to advocate for themselves whether. Regardless of who it is, what advice do you have for someone who one struggles to speak up for themselves, regardless if it doesn't even matter that if it's a, you know, provider or not, but to speak up for themselves for. About their emotional and their mental health needs, whether it's to a provider or to a partner or to even a family member.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: I love that we're gonna talk about this. Cause this really adds onto what we first were talking about, which is the emotional overwhelm. And managing communication while you're emotionally overwhelmed is so difficult. So if we're thinking about communication with the medical team and providers, I think that some of the best approaches is if you are emotionally overwhelmed. I mean, I work with people who actually have anxiety symptoms, trauma symptoms, when they walk through the door, that we have to work on helping them reduce their blood pressure because it's just so overwhelming. So in cases like that, but even in cases that are more mild, I really recommend that people do a lot of coping strategies to try to regulate their emotions before the conversations, also during the conversations, also bringing someone with them to some of the appointments. Because when we're emotionally overwhelmed, it's really hard to filter in information and filter in all the information.
Have a friend, have a family member, have a partner, sit there, write notes, bring your own questions, but write them down in notes. When we're emotionally overwhelmed, we can't remember what we were thinking about asking our. Our provider 10 minutes ago. That's going to go out the window. So just being realistic about what kinds of tools will you need for in order to advocate for yourself. And often that requires your community and it requires things that just organizing you with executive functioning. Like I said, that goes out the window when you're emotionally overwhelmed. When it comes to. And. And this does also expand to surrogates and egg donors too, too. It's such a conversation piece we have. When I'm screening surrogates and egg donors is about assertiveness and advocacy and reminding them this is just as much about you as it is for an intended parent or parents. When it comes to communication around partners, family members, friends, I think it's so complicated because I think that the assumption a lot of people have is, well, if this person is super close to me, they're going to fulfill all my emotional needs. I have during this time. And I always have people take a step back and say, tell me about this person.
Are they best equipped to handle your emotional needs at this point, even though you're not as close to this other friend? Are they a little bit better at stepping in here or.
I see this a lot with parents where parents get so uncomfortable with their kids when they're going through family building that they'll just want to keep everything positive. And then the person will be like, you know, I just want to be seen by my parents and for them to understand how difficult this is. And I'll say, you know, they might not have that skill set. Could we switch them over into something action oriented? Could they support your needs by dropping off dinner, walking your dog, so really understanding what your needs are, but also who can show up and give them to you? It's just not everyone. Everyone comes with different skill sets.
I think that can be really help and help someone out when it comes to, you know, making sure they're going to the right people for the, for the things that they need.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: Every time I open up my mouth and I have a conversation about what I do, then it always brings. Opens up other people to have their conversation about, you know, oh, well, you know, I. I've experienced this. Or I had a conversation with someone recently that went through ivf. She said, you know, the craziest thing was I never thought that this was even going to be an issue.
And then I get married, obviously it became an issue. And so it's like, okay, the steps are. And she's definitely type A. The steps are, have to find clinic and have to go in there, have to get this stuff done. Just like, I even went so far as bring my laptop to the doctor's appointment so that I can, you know, write down my notes. And, you know, and it was a process. And it's like this and this and this and this and this. And then, you know, and she's like, I'm going in without even knowing really what I was expecting. What, what happens? What. What am I supposed to be looking for? What are the questions I'm supposed to be asking? I have no idea. All I know is I'm having these problems and now I have to go here. And now I'm having to trust this person who, I don't know, a hole in the wall from, and telling me, you have this issue or you have that issue, or this is the problem, or this isn't the problem, or we have no idea what the problem is.
And I'm, you know, have 10, 15 minutes with this person and then I'm shuffled out the door.
What am I supposed to do that?
[00:31:26] Speaker B: Yes. I think that this, this happens often. And I of course, want to go bigger picture and then into smaller picture. I think the bigger picture is we don't know a lot about our reproductive health still in 2024, we do not know a lot about our reproductive health, and that is a systemic issue.
And then fast forward to this amazing example you just provided. It's again, why I share with people. This is a job because not only are you going to be managing your emotional overwhelm, managing finances, cognitive abilities with your decision making, but also you need to go educate yourself.
Unfortunately, it is. Well, fortunately, there are many spaces where people are doing amazing work in educating people around this, but there's a lot to learn, and that's overwhelming as well, because how do you know what question to ask if you don't even know how your body functions?
[00:32:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:32] Speaker B: And that wasn't, that's not taught to us when we're younger and we begin our, our, our path and sex education.
So there's a lot to catch up on.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: Joke.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: Oh, 100.
Yeah.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: So no, I get. I 100 agree.
So, yeah.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: But I think also when picking a provider, feeling like you're seen and heard and educated and that the time is spent is something that's important to look into when you're feeling, if you're feeling rushed out the door, if you're feeling like someone's not hearing you. And this, this goes for any provider, but especially in this space, I think that's, I think that's a time to sit and pause and really reflect on, is this a good match for me and what I need right now.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. And not just your medical provider, your mental health support, your attorneys, your agencies, all of them. I think that that is just as important for everybody that's involved, because in this process, it really does take a village. Like that's not just a cliche.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think there's many of us who work in, whether it's mental health agency side, medical side, legal side, we have this specialty in the work, but half of our work is also in education. And we take such pride in educating people in the spaces that we know. And I think once someone connects with one of us who really prioritizes that, they will really feel it.
Yeah. And so I encourage people to look for that.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: For those considering working with someone, you know, for mental health care, what can they expect from their first sessions?
[00:34:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:24] Speaker A: Well, their first session, I should say.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it's funny, you know, in grad school you're taught, you know, first session you meet someone, you have this whole structured interview. But I work a little different and I'd say probably a lot of my colleagues would join me on this one. But when it comes to family building, we might meet someone who's been in it for six months to three to five years.
People have stories to tell, so I really like to give people the space to center themselves in their story and tell me everything. They want to make sure I know and understand about what they have been through before meeting me.
What do I need to catch up on?
Of course, if there is someone who feels a little nervous about meeting, you know, mental health provider for the first time, I will then fold in a lot of structured questions because there's a lot I need to know to know who this person is and what they've been through. But what you can expect is a conversation, a conversation where you're going to tell your story. Conversation where someone's going to ask, what are your goals? What do you want me to help you with? Where have you felt stuck?
Conversation around.
What symptoms are you experiencing that you want me to really team up with you to help reduce so you can get through this?
They don't necessarily go away because you're still going through the process. But we are, we are so great at helping people reduce those symptoms. What, like we brought up earlier, what relationship challenges are you having? Just so I know, okay, let me make sure we, you know, talk a little bit about some of how that communication is going to, and what we can experiment with moving forward to see if it can go a little smoother.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: How does someone determine if they need like short term support versus long term counseling?
[00:36:13] Speaker B: That's a great question.
I think that when it comes to short or long term, it's really up to the person. I think that there are plenty of people that can come to us as like, as a reproductive health psychologist, sometimes I'm just brought on to address a handful of symptoms and sometimes it expands long to be more than that. Where not only are we doing symptom reduction, but we are going into working on, you know, processing their grief, processing how their relationships have changed over time, processing how their identity is shifting through this experience.
That can be longer term work. If symptoms still linger and are intense, that can be longer term work. So it's really up to the person. But one of the things I always suggest to people, and I hope this is helpful for Your listeners is go ahead and establish care with someone.
I'm sure many of my colleagues work like myself, where it's like, establish care, let's get to know each other, let's meet, see if we can do some work together that way. Also, if any of those pivots that we were talking about earlier happen, you've got someone to call right away who can, who can say, yep, I'm going to, I'm going to make room in my schedule. Okay, that didn't go how, how, how you had hoped, no problem. And that happens all the time. So like I said, short term, long term can vary. Of course, as a clinician, I'm going to be really honest if I feel like people need longer term work. But in the end, my patients, it's up to them and I support them in any decision they make, no matter what.
[00:37:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
What's the biggest misconception about therapy during fertility treatment?
[00:37:56] Speaker B: Oh, that's a really interesting question.
Probably, probably what you had just brought up, which is one that I have to be in therapy weekly for six months to a year.
It doesn't necessarily work that way. And I think people have been conditioned to think that therapy always has to look like that, but not always. You know, it just depends what you want to work on. I mean, sometimes I'm helping people with insomnia as it relates to going through fertility treatment. And insomnia work can be really quick and excitingly, it can be really quick. We can really turn around people's sleep in a short period of time.
[00:38:42] Speaker A: I think that so for so many, sometimes they feel like, well, you know, I've gone through the therapy, I've done all the things and I have my baby and it's all over and it's all done and I'm good and all the emotions and all of those feelings and everything that I just experienced is all done and it's behind me and
[00:38:59] Speaker B: I can move on 100%. I think that the perinatal time, the postpartum time and beyond is still an opportunity to sometimes having to go back and look at what you had been through.
But let's also be honest, we're not setting people up for success as parents today anyway. You know, we are, we are, you know, we, we have no village. The nuclear family is, is starving for resources, especially when it comes to their emotional well being.
So we've had people go through such a traumatic experience of family building and then we throw them into another phase of life, of parenting and they're suffering there as well. So I just think that it's why I certainly chose to work along the whole span of reproductive health in my practice, because the challenges continue and no matter what point I'm there and hopefully can help people cope to the best of their ability and really try to figure out how they can feel more resourced in a society that's depriving parents of resources.
[00:40:13] Speaker A: And to make it to, to also kind of put it out there that you feeling that way makes you no less of a good parent. It makes you no less of, you know, you've wanted this child and you've gone through all of these things and you don't feel the connection you thought you were going to feel or you're still depressed or, you know, when people asking you, well, you finally have your baby, like, what's the problem? Why, you know, why do you such issues or whatever. And I don't think that people realize your emotions is not an on and off switch.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: Yes. And children do not change that. Right. And also I encourage people who are, who are fearful around having negative emotions around their children. And I really remind them that one, you're the model. We need you to be human. So we need you to show that child a whole span of emotions and talk out loud about what you're feeling and how you're working to get through it, because they're going to experience it too. So I always say, hey, whether you signed up for it or not, it's a really wonderful learning experience for your family because you can identify name emotions in front of your child, talk about coping strategies. What could be better before someday they grow up and they're outside the home is to have had so many of those conversations in their home.
[00:41:41] Speaker A: Yep. And not have shame around it and not be taught the same emotions that you, you know, kind of learned over time to do the complete opposite of that.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: Yes. And like what we said early on is this idea of being taught, don't feel that, you know, push that away. We need to resist against it that in everybody's home and allow the freedom to be able to express and really encourage that of adults and children within homes.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: What's the one thing you wish every fertility patient knew about mental health support?
[00:42:25] Speaker B: I think that most fertility patients don't even know we exist.
They don't even know that we are a very, very specialized group of mental health professionals. We belong to our professional organizations. We belong to the American Society of Reproductive Medicine. This is what we do every day and this is what we spend a majority of our education postgraduate education in. So I always like to highlight that we're here.
Honestly, as step one is, we're here, we do all this work and we can really hit the ground running in a lot of ways with what you need. Because although everybody's such a unique individual, like we mentioned earlier, there are some very deep common themes that show up that are so unique to this space.
[00:43:17] Speaker A: 100%.
If there's one piece of advice you would give to someone just starting their family building journey, what would it be?
[00:43:27] Speaker B: My advice to you is to for you to know that like with every life challenge, you're going to change and grow through this experience, whether you like it or not, and to really allow yourself that transformation.
Although it can be a lot to take on, know that anytime we're going through difficulties, we often come out the other side learning a bit more about ourselves and what we need or want for the future. And so know that as difficult as this is going to be, you will be granted at least that 100%.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: Definitely. Linda, thank you so much for sharing your expertise and helping our listeners understand the crazy, crucial role of mental health support and fertility treatment.
Before we wrap up, where can our listeners learn more about your practice and services?
[00:44:27] Speaker B: Yes, well, first, thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful and letting the word get out about mental health services.
You can learn more about myself or my colleagues in our practice at Orama Wellness.
We also have some social media as well if you want to learn some tips and tricks around mental health strategies.
But yeah, reach out to us if you have any questions. Even if we don't work together, if you think you need a mental health resource, we're always here to answer questions too. We work all throughout the U.S. i think right now one of the larger states we're not licensed in is California, but other than that, we are licensed in most states in the US and we are a telehealth practice, knowing that running around to appointments is challenging in this process and so you can do your work with us in the comforts of your own home, which is huge for many people.
[00:45:27] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
[00:45:30] Speaker B: Well, thank you. Thank you again for having me.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: To our listeners, remember that taking care of your mental health is just as important as any medical procedure on your fertility journey. The family building journey can feel extensive, but with proper support, you can ease the stress created exponentially.
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